The NSMB Podcast
From the team behind NSMB.com, The NSMB podcast will go behind the scenes with the makers, breakers, and risk-takers of our favourite sport. Interviews, news, and other important topics will all be on the menu.
The NSMB Podcast
From Podium to Production: Building We Are One Composites
When Dustin Adams founded We Are One Composites in 2017, the mountain biking industry experts said it couldn't be done. Manufacturing carbon fiber rims in Canada? Economically impossible. Yet Adams, a former World Cup downhill racer with podium finishes and Canadian Championship titles to his name, wasn't deterred by conventional wisdom.
Selling everything he owned—including his comfortable Squamish home—Adams moved his family to Kamloops, bought a "rat-infested" house that needed work, and started We Are One with just five people and enough cash to last eight months. The pressure was immense, but the team delivered, pioneering revolutionary manufacturing techniques that allowed them to produce carbon rims with "Class A out of the mold" finishes that eliminated costly post-production work.
This behind-the-scenes conversation reveals the stunning reality of building a manufacturing business with minimal investment in an industry dominated by Asian production. Adams speaks candidly about his extraordinary journey from making those first carbon rims to fulfilling his boyhood dream of creating the Arrival—a fully Canadian-made carbon fiber mountain bike that received universal praise for its ride quality and construction.
The discussion takes unexpected turns as Adams explains why production of the Arrival was paused despite representing 50% of company revenue, and how We Are One's unique manufacturing approach has positioned them perfectly to navigate recent tariff challenges that are devastating competitors. His insights into the current state of mountain biking—including the rapid shift toward electric mountain bikes and what that means for traditional bike manufacturers—provide a fascinating glimpse into industry trends.
Perhaps most moving is Adams' commitment to giving back to the sport that shaped his life. Now coaching young downhill racers through the Kamloops DH Union, he's helping develop the next generation of Canadian talent. As for We Are One's future? Expansion into new product categories, continued manufacturing innovation, and perhaps—when the time is right—a return to frame production are all on the horizon.
It's funny how like a little tiny factory in the central region of British Columbia can how far the rumor mill can reach. I've heard, I've had people from Santa Cruz call me and say, hey, I've heard and you're like what you know? You're up talking to distribution two weeks ago and they're like yeah, we heard that you guys. Oh, my goodness in this.
Speaker 2:Anyone who's had aspirations of going pro, no matter the sport, will tell you how rarefied that air is. There are only so many spots and an endless list of applicants, so making it to the top level is already a huge accomplishment. Dustin Adams hit that mark, scoring a DH podium at the World Cup level, snagging excellent Norba finishes and a pair of Canadian Championships, before he was hit by a car on a training ride and his career was cut short. One could argue that his accomplishments since his racing days have eclipsed his UCI results founding we Are One Composites in 2016 and figuring out how to make carbon rims economically in Canada. The rims were strong, light and beautifully made and the line expanded. But Dustin had a private goal getting a locally produced carbon mountain bike frame to market in just five years. He beat that goal and when the arrival landed, it rode beautifully and was very well received. Unfortunately, things got sticky during and after COVID and investment money became scarce and we Are One was forced to pivot. Listen in as Dustin and I talk about making carbon stuff in Canada what happened to the arrival, what the arrival 2 would look like and what lies ahead for we Are One Composites.
Speaker 2:I'm Cam McRae and this is the NSMB Podcast. Welcome, dustin Adams, to the NSMB Podcast. I feel like you've already been on because we've talked quite a few times, but this is your first time on the podcast, so I'm very happy to have you. Thanks for joining us.
Speaker 1:Yeah, likewise, thanks for having me. I enjoy doing this and I've been quietly in the background listening to all of them and excited to finally be on one.
Speaker 2:Oh cool, that's nice to hear. The first thing I'd like to talk about is how you started this grand venture. For people who haven't heard the story, I think it's a good one, and the fact that you've managed to accomplish something that everybody said you couldn't is is remarkable, so I think it's worthwhile hearing about how you started this journey.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, it's uh, it's kind of like a crazy um dream of mine, I think, ever since I was a kid, to make a bike and or make a bike company and somehow be on this side of the industry after racing. And um, uh, I was working kind of in the industry at Noble Wheels and we were manufacturing in Asia and kind of getting my feet wet on the industry side of things and I realized and recognized there was a potential for manufacturing in North America. I had a stone shop prior to that and learned a lot of automation, machining and whatnot and I figured all of these skills could come together and make for a great opportunity to start a company in Canada. It also was going to give us a good differentiation story that would separate us from the holistic approach of having an Asian manufacturer make your products. It was a great story and I think we could control the product better. But yeah, I sold everything I have and kind of put it all on black. You know, I had a nice place in Squamish and we sold that and uprooted my wife and my kids and moved back to Kamloops and bought a little crummy house on a plot of land and that needed a hell of a lot of work and was rat infested and mouse infested. Oh my God Lived, uh lived pretty, pretty small life.
Speaker 1:Uh well, we started the company and, um, yeah, we started it with five people uh fraser, uh, um uh, fraser andrew he's now an engineer at fox, uh gil corbeil is a machinist of ours, uh shane jensen and uh wayne parsons and and myself all kind of founded the company. I guess we started building the internal workshop and shoved a CNC machine into the corner and started learning very quickly on how to make product. It wasn't really much of a big picture strategy in play. I think we just wanted to make it to market and see if we could, and then, once we were there, we would figure it out. So I wish I had some grandiose plan to share with you and it all worked out. Tickety boo. It was more about like, can we make it viable to market without going out of or running out of money and having to call it a day? So yeah.
Speaker 2:So I'm curious about the calculations you made. I mean, it sounds like maybe you didn't calculate too much beforehand, but the calculations you made about whether your ideas of viability lined up with any kind of calculations you made about what manufacturing was going to cost, what labor was going to cost.
Speaker 1:I mean, I had rough cogs data. I had an understanding and a threshold of that we needed to meet to be able to be profitable. It was very small at the time. I mean, we, our overheads were tiny. I mean, we had an 1800 square foot facility that I think cost us I think it was 2,800 or 2,800 or $2,500 a month.
Speaker 1:We had a machine payment on the Haas that we had to make, a machine payment on the plotter that we had to make, and then enough runway to make it. I think it was to August. So we started in January 7th 2017, and we had enough money, without selling anything to make it to August on our on how much money everybody was making. So, eight months, if we didn't have a viable product into the market and we're transacting, then we would. We would have run out of cash. So that was really the only math that was done and, uh, that it put a massive fire under everyone's ass to achieve the goal and I think it was june 1st. We launched um, which was the first day santa cruz reserve launched. So, yeah, it was pretty neat what were?
Speaker 2:what was it like when you started getting orders and excitement was brewing and you, you had products.
Speaker 1:Well, it was. It was amazing, obviously. I mean, when we we achieved the goal and we were early. Um, I remember shane uh being being given the, the opportunity, or the the crown, to take our first batch of uh prototype rims to an enduro race in Penticton. It was like the BC enduro at the time and he said that he showed up and people were like surrounding his car because he knew, like they all knew, he was there for something and everyone wanted to see the product and touch and feel it and whatnot. And the excitement was really high. And then he would relay that message back to us and it was really cool to see everybody kind of beaming about, you know, what we had just accomplished and and how, how excited the, the local economy or the local ridership was uh to to get on board and support what we were, what we were about to to launch to the market.
Speaker 1:So, um, yeah, yeah, it was a really exciting time to be in the company. It was, uh, it was amazing. Um, uh, you know emotions were high, uh, it was. It felt really rewarding to kind of like, come out the other side knowing that you now could, you could build it. And then it also came really really quickly that, oh yeah, now we need, we need to make these on the regular. Now this is no, no longer just like practice. We have to get these out the door and we have to meet orders and demand and whatnot. So it became very real, very quick you were chasing uh, well, yeah, I'm we're.
Speaker 1:I mean, I feel like we still are chasing up until, like we've had a bit of reprieve. Uh, finally, and uh, up until about two months ago, a month and a half ago. We are no longer chasing any longer.
Speaker 2:So, that's nice. That's a good spot to be in.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Now, when I first came to visit you in that original facility, you were reluctant to talk about some of the efficiencies you found that allowed you to build rims for in less time and for less money than the existing processes you knew about. Are you able to talk about those now?
Speaker 1:yeah, I mean it's the. The process there is is iterative. I mean every day when you're making things, uh, you pick up on on changes and adjustments, uh that you can make to make things quicker and better and faster, which in turn you make it for cheaper, which is is the whole goal of manufacturing. Um, the big thing that we started with and I think a lot of the industry is now since followed is the, the whole process of good out of the mold, a class a finish, they they call it in our industry and in the composites industry, and we were the first rim to market to provide a class A finish without any painting or any additional steps needed to the product.
Speaker 1:And I think a lot of companies have now since followed and that was the number one thing that allowed us to be competitive without having all of the additional one, the overheads of a paint booth, painter, a sander and all the additional labor inputs downstream. So that process alone was one of the biggest ones. That, uh, that I said, I think, set us on the path of success. And then, on top of that, just the, the methodology of how we laminate a rim, so our packages that we we put into the rim, the way we pre-make a lot of them, and the simplification of of putting those pieces and kits into a mold and using the actual physical mold for both lamination and for curing are all like the, the foundation, the bedrock foundation, of why we were able to get the pricing and everything to where it needed to be.
Speaker 2:And now other manufacturers are doing it in a similar way, or some are, some aren't.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean I can only go off of what I'm seeing when I see other products in the market. I mean, I think the commoditization has finally hit the old carbon rim market pretty hard and when you go and you look at other people's finishes and other people's product, that's my interpretation is that they've definitely have caught up to that and are also implementing that in their process as well. Um, and I also think the market is accepting of it. So a lot of people at the time, I think, were very nervous that the market would have pushed back against that and it would have classified it as as a subpar finish. But, um, at the end of the day, it actually cuts down on environmental impact and bocs removes paint and a bunch of stuff from it. So it's it. It's a better for for everybody. Um, and and I think now that everybody's accepting it's you'll, you're seeing more and more of it for sure.
Speaker 2:And how did you crack it before everybody else? What was, what was the breakthrough that you figured out, that everybody else struggled to?
Speaker 1:It was the the one that was the fundamental goal. It was the biggest challenge we needed to achieve to be successful. Downstream labor was not going to be possible. So if we couldn't make it without it being Class A out of the mold, we failed and the business would have wrapped up right then. If we had the same issues that I experienced when I was at Noble in China and we just brought those over here and we had to like go labor to labor, we would have lost right out of the gate. So it was the one thing we had to fix in order to be successful, and if we had not done that by June, we would have been in big trouble had we not done that by June, we would have been in big trouble.
Speaker 2:So once you got up and you were, I mean, I remember the first time you were at interbike, at that point I knew you had one rim and then you showed up with six and and all of a sudden you had all of these products. What was it like going from simple production of one rim to, all of a sudden, a whole, all of these products? What was it like going from simple production of one rim to, all of a sudden, a whole bunch of different ones?
Speaker 1:oh yeah, I mean it's like you're uh you're, you create your own challenges. Let's put it that way. Like, looking back at it, all it was a good move. I would never have changed it, but all of those things created other problems that I had not planned for. So, like trial by fire, 100% like that means more people. More people means more personalities. Personalities means more time spent dealing with personalities and planning production and making sure people come to work on time and whatnot. But I mean it was the challenge of scaling a company.
Speaker 1:At that point the demand continued to grow and that was like leading up to COVID, before everything went absolutely nuts. But you know, we were still hand to mouth and making promises we could hardly keep on a daily basis when it came down to getting people their rims in a timely manner. The good thing that we never did is we never sacrificed quality for getting the product onto people's bikes. I was happy we stuck to our core values of product is always perfect or we just don't do it. It was tough, it was. It was at that point is when the company really started to struggle. It went from being reasonably profitable to just absolutely hurting because we were reinvesting and training and bringing people up to speed and and ensuring the quality was at the all-time high all the time and our qc was never up for debate.
Speaker 2:But, um yeah, just a whole other host of challenges popped up in that process I'm also curious about how, when you had your first rims coming out of the mold um, obviously you, you tested them by riding them did you also smash some of them?
Speaker 1:oh for sure. Yeah, I mean fraser was we had an engineer on staff right from day one. Uh, we would do compression tests, laterals, radial stiffness tests and impact tests, like everybody does today. Um, there was at the time there was a pretty low standard um as to like what you were following so and it was actually pretty loose. Even there wasn't an official iso set iso or efbe or astm testing standards specific for carbon mountain bike rims at the time. Um, so we had to kind of create our own test protocols at what we would consider to be acceptable and not, and benchmarking against other people's products was what we used for that. But definitely, fraser was a big part of delivering that for the company and ensuring that the product was safe and it was. Uh, it was passing our acceptable level of standard for for riders for sure and I know how.
Speaker 2:From, uh, the media perspective and talking to people riders I know how the product was received, what was, how did you receive feedback and did you have a formal process of trying to find out how people were experiencing the product?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean wheels is a funny space and it's also become even a more challenging space. Your success is only determined on how hard they are to break down and it's kind of like, if I'm honest, it kind of misses the point of what a carbon rim is. It's a finely tuned piece of kit that can be adjusted so many different ways from shape to laminate, to orientation of the laminate, to weight to you name it, to achieve a very specific outcome. Weight, to you name it to achieve a very specific outcome. Now, when you're doing, you're making what you think is best for the market. It can be subjective.
Speaker 1:So the go-to seemed to be like do they break? And that was kind of the thing. And if they do break, do I get a free one? That was kind of like it. So it's the nuances of what we were doing. We're kind of lost, I bet. I think and I think the um, I also think we lost out on the marketing dollars of other companies. Uh, having the ability to kind of like um how do I say this Getting other people drunk on product that maybe have been subpar because of the parties they hold. I don't know.
Speaker 1:Like sure, that's a really shitty way of saying it, but there, I said it um, and, and we kind of like lost out, I think, on market share there, but it's a good thing. We could have never fulfilled the demand that those people were putting out at the time anyway. So we had our right space and our right size at the right time. But, uh, yeah, um, I think we had a better product and, as people found out about it and we learned to also improve on everything day in and day out, um, we made a lot of rolling changes with each product. Each time we learned about it and made an improvement, we didn't wait for like a model year change. It was like an immediate change because that was better and those rims moving forward got better and better and better and better and we just constantly improved.
Speaker 2:So yeah, and your? Was your failure rate higher or lower than you expected it to be going in?
Speaker 1:Uh, we had always talked about a 3% kind of threshold. I think industry is a little bit larger than that and in our first year we were significantly lower and I think people were riding them harder than we had we had expected. And then the following year carrying that that, carrying that exposure forward to the following year. It didn't grow and we were like, oh wow, ok, this is actually better than we expected. So we kept it sub 3% for quite some time and still are in that position and historically we've been doing extremely well, I think, in comparison extremely well, I think, in comparison Nice.
Speaker 2:So is there an acknowledged and known industry standard or it's just word of mouth? I mean, no one's going to publicize it really.
Speaker 1:I think it's like again, it's really hard to put this to like I don't really like when people talk about carbon rims as like a carte blanche statement. People talk about carbon rims and it's like a carte blanche statement. I've tried carbon rims and they're garbage. It's like well, you've tried one company's iteration on what they think is a great carbon rim for the intended use case. That is a wildly different product than anyone else's carbon rim. I can guarantee you, unless they're using the same laminate, the same fiber, the same manufacturing, the same shape and the same spoke tension, you can't paint a picture of all carbon rims in that manner. It's just that company's version of it, and some people, you know they, have been unable to accept and like our product as much as other people feel the same way about other people's product, and that's fine. Not everything is built to just be and this is where carbon, I think, has lost the plot a bit is it's just been built to be this bomb-proof product that no one can break, and the only measure is can you break it? Well, if you're buying carbon rims for that purpose, I would say that you have made a poor purchase and you have lost the whole point of what it is that we're trying to do with carbon rims from from we are one standpoint I won't speak for anybody else, but from our standpoint, you should be able to feel a significant increase in quality of ride.
Speaker 1:Um, you know how the bike behaves on the trail. Traction A lot of people talk about um. You know about um. You know compliance. You know you should actually feel the bike uh, come alive underneath you. Uh, how the bike performs out of corners. It's going to have a much like a rebound effect. Um, those are the reasons why you do this. You buy this because it's a performance enhancing product that you put on your bike and it makes the bike and the riding experience better. Um, it does so happen to be that you know weight to strength is extremely strong and it does provide a massive amount of impact resistance. But they still can fail. You want to push it to the limit and run low pressures and wring it off rocks like I can't engineer around that it's, it's impossible I think people also really like not having to true rims yeah, a hundred percent.
Speaker 1:I mean the the fact that a carbon rim comes out of mold, true, and spokes and hubs are basically attached to a perfectly true product. Yeah, it's a hundred percent. One of the benefits of the product, for sure.
Speaker 2:Not to mention the dings.
Speaker 1:Yeah, there's upsides and there's downsides.
Speaker 2:It's not a perfect product for everyone, and that's the beauty of it. Now, it was just about five years along when you produced the Arrival Looking back at that process.
Speaker 1:How do you remember it? A blur, an absolute blur. I actually regret that honestly. I do like one. It was, it was. I don't think. I don't think I could put into two words just how hard that that was. Um, it damn near broke the company, damn near broke me. It has for surely broken. More than a handful of our employees cross across that process. It was like going to war with an army and and knowing that you weren't going to get resupplied or refilled and you had to win the battle. Um, so we lost a lot of good people in that. In that process there was some casualties.
Speaker 1:Uh, the outcome was I, I, I still will say it will be one of those bikes that rolls through the pits 10 years from the date that it was produced and still in the same form that it was the day that it was produced, which was what our goal was. It's not a throwaway product. It's not a it's not the right model year. I should buy something else. It's like no, there's still guys out there that are three, four years into it and like I don't need another bike.
Speaker 1:So for us, you know, we did what we did and we achieved what we could. But I I look back at it and I wish I was more present and had more time and was more able to like, thank and and and appreciate the people that were involved in that. Um, unfortunately, like the world of of business doesn't afford that all the time, and us being a scrappy company without any meaningful investment ever still to date, um, it didn't provide for that. So that's kind of the one thing I look back at and say I was a little bit bummed about it.
Speaker 2:And at the same time it was a huge accomplishment. I mean, it's one thing building rims in North America, but building not just a frame, but a frame that rides really well and, as you say, still rides really well and was very well received by everyone who rode them.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, like everything we do here, the product has to be the best and it has to be perfect. And, um, I mean there was, there was still little little issues with it. But yeah, for the deliverable of our first bike, our first carbon bike, the first carbon bike ever manufactured in Canada at scale, in the mountain bike space, you know like bike space, you know like, yeah, you, you, you would be really hard pressed to to to pull it apart and call it a bad product, for our first one for sure what?
Speaker 2:what uh you're talking about? Maybe things that uh, I don't know, deficiencies, but what? But what would you have done differently? Or what would you if you were back at it? What would you like to improve?
Speaker 1:Well, I mean we did get down the road of version two. So version two was on the table. Version two was through CAD, through ideation, it was ready for prototyping. So what we have done better in version two was simplification of the design. The very strong design aspects that Vlad put into the bike did create a lot of manufacturing challenges. So in order for us to alleviate a lot of those challenges, we had to kind of like tone back the design of it a bit, alleviate a lot of those challenges. We had to kind of like tone back the design of it a bit um, internal cable routing that uh would, would work and wasn't bonded into the frame, uh, into the laminate. Um cable routing that came up above the bottom bracket uh, didn't have external bottom bracket mounted cables. A little bit more robust rear end in full insertion seat post. Change of kinematics just a bit so that the mid-stroke was a little more lively, and a slight tweak to the seat tube angle and reach.
Speaker 1:And that was or sorry not reach stack A lot more stack yeah, we would put 10, I think we were going to add 10 more mil to all sizes on the stack and that was about it and that was kind of that was it. We would have been happy. Refinements, yeah, very small, like not huge, but those would have. We said at that point, that was like all of the issues everyone was saying about the bike. We would have solved them and we would have seen what the new batch of issues would have come from that. And then we would have been like every other company, just iterating on those changes, paying attention to the customer feedback and then delivering the next bike. Uh, that much better the next time.
Speaker 2:Now, going back a little bit, I want to talk about how the boom bust cycle of COVID has impacted your business. I mean, it's been like, uh, an earthquake in all of mountain biking, I think it from my perspective, it seems like it's hit mountain biking harder than road biking. Um, and it doesn't seem like any company is immune.
Speaker 1:How? How was that whole um roller coaster for you? Uh well, I'd say that it hasn't hit road biking, because I think a lot of people are finding out that mountain biking is a whole hell of a lot harder than road biking. The learning curve is way steeper. You can't just buy a mountain bike and get into it. Uh well, you can, but you're not going to be able to do it well for a while. But, um, yeah, I know the company.
Speaker 1:We were in a different position. We didn't take on inventory, we took on overhead, um, which is, uh, a much more difficult position to be in than having an inventory position. We needed to. At the time of COVID, we had five factories all over Kamloops. We needed a single factory. We needed a factory we could scale out of. So we took on a larger space. We moved all of our staff into one space, or, sorry, two spaces. The paint booth was just up the road. We had planned for continual production of the arrival and scaling up of rims and whatnot.
Speaker 1:And at the time, throughout COVID, we never were in inventory. We still, like I say, up until about a month ago or two months ago, we were finally in an inventory position. So we didn't like overbuy or overspend on like parts. We didn't hold too many you know inventory on things we couldn't move through or some egregious amount of inventory that put us into a really tough position. But at that time the market has shifted in the, the acceptability of pricing killed the arrival.
Speaker 1:Um, we had we were faced with one of one of two options. It was either we were having to go a hundred percent direct to consumer with that bike in order to make it a viable project, because there's no margin left in it for for bike shops If we did bring it to market, I guess today's current, today's current competitive rate or just kill it and the engineering lift the challenge, the costs that went along with it, kind of put that aside. And it was a tough decision, but that's what we had to do. So, but yeah, covid was COVID on the wheel, space was just hold on and do as much as you can as fast as you can. That's so it was really good for us in that terms. Um, we we saw only benefits from it. We never really saw any downside from it and we still haven't felt any really so the, the, the echo that so many other companies are are having.
Speaker 2:Well, I mean a lot of its inventory problems, but also pricing problems.
Speaker 1:You haven't really had to deal with that no, we, we work with a very stable vendor for our composites. Um, we haven't seen like a crazy increase in price and we can buy as much inventory as we need at any given time. We've got great forecasting for that. We have great relationships with our hub and spoke vendors and we put in place great forecasting for all of those things and we can get that product quickly. So the overall inventory holding position of the company has never really gone north of where it is today. We buy carbon as we need it, so if we don't need as much one month, we don't buy as much.
Speaker 1:So we operate differently and I think a lot of our business-to-business relationships struggle to comprehend, when we are one struggles, why we do what we do in comparison to other brands, and the direct thought I think of for many of them, because they've been so trained down this conversation in this road, is that we somehow are now fat on inventory and we have we have to dump it, so we hold the sale. But we're much different. It's uh, no one has purchased from us, so our customers are not buying product. However, we still have, you know, 60 employees and a whole bunch of overhead to pay for, and if we're not transacting and no one's supporting the brand. We need to generate revenue, so we hold the sale. It's a very different thing. So um we they're both cashflow implications. You know one's inventory and one's overhead. So the the the reason is very similar, but why is much different?
Speaker 2:Interesting. So you touched on this and you and I have talked about this already. Can you talk about the decision to stop producing the Arrival and the moment when you realized that it was the best decision for the company?
Speaker 1:I, I, I, I don't think it was a good decision for the company. Uh, the arrival at the time was 50% of our revenue. Um, it was a significant amount uh, and it was going into a second phase where we could have become so much more profitable. Because of the iterations and changes to the process and the design and everything that we had, we are ripe to scale and do really really well with it. The reason why we stopped making bikes is just because we didn't have the cash to to facilitate it and we couldn't get investment to make it happen.
Speaker 1:Um, like I said, we we've never had a meaningful investment into the organization you know of of a multi like you look at kind of current truck talk. You know guardian bikes out of the U? S is scaling up bike manufacturing but they're not. That's assembly. Okay. Well, if I was in the U S? Um, we would have had a massive investment by this point at, for surely? Um, guardian just got $19 million uh seed funding to get this happening. That's around.
Speaker 1:That's a series a if you look at 19 million dollars to to do what guardian is doing, which is assembling bikes in the us and maybe doing some machining and growing some manufacturing on this on the steel and the aluminum side. That's. It's amazing. You look at stories like da vinci cycles 4.6 million dollars from the quebec government to automate out their, their um welding facility so they can weld aluminum bikes. More than that, okay, we are one started with $460,000 there, like this is the issue that we're faced with. So this company is is a cash in, cash out business. It's been operating like that since day one. It has had investment, but in the hundreds of thousands of dollars. It currently has four shareholders that all up have invested, for sure, but nowhere near what we would have needed to see it go to, to the level that that it uh sorry, nowhere near what it needed to get that second bike across the line without running into big issues yeah, and what do you attribute the?
Speaker 2:I mean, if it's so much easier to get investment in the U S, why is that? Why? Why is a business of your size that's obviously shown um that you can be successful struggled to get investment?
Speaker 1:Uh, probably my ability as a CEO. If I'm honest, I'll own it. I probably am not the best fundraiser. I don't have a CFO and we don't have somebody out there pounding the pavement and creating the pitch decks. I've been way too busy operating. I've been more of a COO than a CEO and I've just been busy keeping the lights on and ensuring that everything goes through the factory the way that I would well, the way we need it to every day.
Speaker 1:That's probably a big reason, I think, investing in the space you know it's not like I haven't had conversations. There's lots of conversations, but most investment doesn't even begin to come into play until you're you know the $2 to $2.5, maybe three million dollar EBITDA mark, which, if you've just burned through two and a half to three million dollars in reinvesting your revenue and your cash flow into developing a bike, it's pretty hard to tell an investor that and have them believe it. And we just maybe just didn't have the right guy. Come through and, or gal gal come through and, or firm or whatever. I'm not going to like whatever. Um, come through and and and and listen and and and and be excited about the story and what we were doing.
Speaker 2:Talking about? Um, I think a lot of people started to talk when you stopped producing the Arrival, yeah, and kept talking for a while, and there have been all sorts of rumors floating around. Are you able to talk about that speculation and how much of it was grounded in truth and how much of it was fantasy? Well, I mean or maybe the craziest one you've heard.
Speaker 1:I've heard all of it. But it's funny how like a little tiny factory in the in the central region of British Columbia can, how far the rumor mill can reach. I've heard, I've had people from Santa Cruz call me and say, hey, I've heard, and you're like what? Uh, you know, you're up uh, talking to distribution two weeks ago and they're like, yeah, we heard that you guys. Oh, my goodness, um, yeah, I mean it.
Speaker 1:So the tail end of COVID was pretty wild. You know. There was a lot of companies growing at such a rapid rate that they had pretty big aspirations as well and there was talk of acquisition. For sure, with a few of them. Those conversations did happen. They never made it anywhere near the LOI or due diligence stage. They were just that. You know, initial conversations.
Speaker 1:How those leaked out to the industry and became a topic of discussion is still a bit beyond me, because I kept it pretty tight to my chest, but they made it out. So the whole discussion around, like the SRAM acquiring us, you know that's pretty funny. Then there was discussion of me selling to some PE firm which that never happened or not even even like those are. That just didn't even happen. There was no discussion about that Street 9. I mean that's, uh, it's an interesting one, um, I I can't I that one has gone down the path quite far, um, and still is up for potential um to happen. Um, it's, it's not an unknown at this point and I think you know, I think we would be excited to see something like that happen, but uh, um, it's still in discussion, um, and how it ends up and how it, how it shakes out, is still yet to be known are you still producing rims for industry?
Speaker 1:nine yeah, absolutely, yeah, what, what?
Speaker 2:percentage of your output goes to goes to them about 25 percent.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah, 25 percent for them birds sitting at about 15 percent, and then the remainder is our product as it stands now, with the pause, I guess there's no tariff problem for you uh, we have been.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we have. I. I I hesitate to comment too far because god forbid what's going to happen tomorrow or the next minute, but, um, so far we have had a ruling that, you know, 100 of our raw materials to make rims comes out of the us. That doesn't matter what it is, if it's processed materials, if it's chemicals, if it's pre-preg aluminum, all of it comes from the US. So to make the product, we're using genuine USMCA or KUSMA related product, so that when it comes across the border, all we are applying is labor, that when it comes across the border, all we are applying is labor. So we have a USMCA ruling and we are compliant with the USMCA and that's a binding agreement between us and the US Border Protection Agency. I don't know the people at the border. Anyhow, that's been officially documented. Um, um, anyhow, that that's been officially documented. So we are duty free. Um and uh, we still remain in that position. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Are there things that you have to buy from China at all? That would cross the border.
Speaker 1:Not one thing.
Speaker 2:That's great. You're in a an excellent position. I know there are many, many companies that are not in such a good spot right now.
Speaker 1:It's yeah, it's unfortunate, but yeah, I I feel for all of those companies and at the same time, I can't sit here and also relish in the fact that my long term strategy and vision is actually panning out. Finally, you know, wrong time, wrong place. It would have been nice to be busy and have this booming economy, but I told you so. I guess. I don't know if it worked out, for how long, I don't know if it grows, I don't know. But here we are and everything we've talked about and pushed towards seems to, it seems to be panning out for us.
Speaker 2:It's nice that there are actually some upsides for Canadians. There's um a DH bike that we just reviewed and it, in actual dollars, is going to be more expensive in the U? S than in Canada, which, by a significant chunk.
Speaker 1:We uh, yeah, I mean I, I I try not to mix business and politics Um, it's, it's rather uh interesting to see the, the, the uh, the reasons for a lot of the stuff that's being done down South of the border. Um, and I just hope that our government continues to stay and hold course and doesn't wrap itself up in the rhetoric and makes the right moves for Canadian business into the future. And you know, at the end of the day, I just think a peaceful outcome and a diplomatic outcome is all I can ask for.
Speaker 2:Looking back, when will it be nine years? Was it already nine years?
Speaker 1:Uh, we're. I think we're officially at the eight and a half year mark. This month.
Speaker 2:Okay, so eight and a half years into this impossible venture that everyone said you wouldn't be able to do. Um, what's? What's the most satisfying element of the whole thing?
Speaker 1:I'm a, I'm a I don't know Um. It's funny because a lot of people say that to me and like, like you should be so happy with what you've done and whatnot, and I'm not content. I never have been. I'm a a pretty hard person to to like sit down and look back.
Speaker 1:Um, I'm I'm more, I'm more upset than I am excited because, you know, by the once we stopped making the bike, it took a lot of steam out of my sales. I was really pushing for that. That was a boyhood dream of mine. And what really bugs me is we never got to bring the downhill bike to market, which I still envy too. You know, all of these bikes, I think, could have made a big impact and would have made people's eyes open as to what quality really should be in the industry. So I mean I'm most proud that we did it.
Speaker 1:Um, I'm bummed that it's, it's no longer a thing, um, but at the same time, you know, it's given us the chance to really focus in on rims and wheels and and we have a an exciting like addition, a bunch of additions to to the rim lineup, that and segments and categories that we haven't ever been involved in lighter weight product that we're not known for. You know, gravel, bike packing, cross country product. Um, we have some uh first time product categories that haven't been uh approached by other brands coming out soon. Um, and and it's given us also time to spend and focus a lot more attention on how to improve on laminates and designs that we have right now, and we've made another vast step forward with this upcoming product as well.
Speaker 2:Wow, yeah, that's pretty exciting.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, I think is is is as good as bad as it was losing the bike, and it kind of hurts. But it's also equally cool to know that we're going to be shifting the balance again on the rim side in the near future. Here, garner some more support, get some more sales. Uh, you know, build up our coffers to, to, to invest into some other cool project that you know falls alongside the bike, like we did in the past so you're, you're saying that maybe it's a pause and not done for good yeah, I'd never said forever.
Speaker 1:Um, uh it it's a not right now. Um, it's not a not forever for sure. Uh, it's just not the right time. Um, and and the it's. It's unfortunate because I think not only that, that what we would have to bring to market would have to change dramatically based on demand. Right now, we all know the onset of e-bikes are are just wildly um, eroding any ability to buy or sell a standard bicycle. Um, so I think the direction would have to shift wildly and acceptance of of innovating on the e side of things, on the e-bike side of things, would have to come to to the table, and then that would be, I think, probably the best way to re-enter the market, uh, without having a risk of of uptake being the thing that holds you back.
Speaker 2:Um, yeah, so so do you think that at the top end of the bike market um emtbs are outselling pedal bikes?
Speaker 1:I don't know what.
Speaker 1:Like I have no data on sales I would say interest, interest, 100, like I think when I talk to people out on the trails in my rider group out there in the industry, just chat conversation, I mean the most mind bending thing in my time would be in, like like SRAM's latest T type drive train, which is like a pretty significant advancement in the industry for what we do, and it's like kind of like I don't know how the hell they're going to make it better from here. That was so fizzled out so quick to now. It's like kind of like I don't know how the hell they're gonna make it better from here. That was so fizzled out so quick to now. It's like watts, power, dji, bosch motors, that's it. I mean I, that's all I talk about and that's all people want to talk about.
Speaker 1:Um, and it's tough because I'm I'm not. I'm not a Luddite. I can appreciate it, but I am a bit of an old school dude where I'm like biking was not supposed to be easy. Climbing up the hill was part of the reward. It is supposed to be challenging. Uh, you know, like that core of me is still very well alive and still definitely where I spend most of my thought and time when people talk to me about that, um, uh, e-bikes. But if you want to run a business, you have to, you have to adapt or you die, um. So that's why I say like if we were going to do it, it's. It seems to be where all the attention is getting paid.
Speaker 2:Interesting and it seems like engineers like the challenge of making the mtb yeah, I mean it's a pretty cool challenge.
Speaker 1:I mean, you're you, you have a drive train, you have a gearbox, you have an electric motor, you've got batteries, you have, like you know, power output, power delivery, so you bring in like a whole new aspect of engineering that never would have been thought of. I mean, what would you need an electrical engineer for? And the bike space, I mean it's like it's not heard of. So now you have to have a super robust team to make this a reality if you're not going to purchase an off-the-shelf product from one of the vendors like sram or bosch or dji or whoever's the hottest motor at the moment that that's a huge entity undertaking, if you're talking about putting motors in as well well, we're yeah, we're headed down the path of we don't talk about bikes anymore, we talk about motors.
Speaker 1:So we're going to be like honda is known for riding, uh, their bikes are known for riding a certain way, but the motor is what we talk about. How's the 450? How does the power delivery? How's the reliability of the motor? So I feel like I feel for the bike companies because, much to the same degree we have always been, we've always been this like we talk about the bike and the wheels never get brought up. So we were always this third wheel. Now the wheels aren't going to get talked about, the bike's not going to get talked about. The motor and the battery and the duration and the watts, that's what we'll talk about. So it's like cool. So, like you know, the guys that are designing the latest, greatest specialized, they're sitting there going like what about us? We? Why the motor? Like guys, we're, we're, we did it, uh, so it'll be interesting to see. It's like you know, we are all doing this to ourselves, so we can't get down the path and look back and go like, uh, I don't know why this happened.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's pretty clear why it's why it's happening. Yeah, have you been getting out on your bike lately?
Speaker 1:I have. I even bought I can't believe I'm going to say this, but I bought an e-bike even just to try it out. Yeah, so yeah, I've been riding my arrival. I've been actually kind of. You know, I'm turning 45 this year and I've found bike packing, bike packing and and ultra endurance kind of things, uh, quite interesting. I spent most of the year so far riding a titanium hardtail that um Dale Marchand from Rollingdale welded for me a couple of years ago and did my first bike packing Epic on the weekend and and kind of shook it out so I can do the BC Epic this year, which is an 1100 K race, um from Merritt to Fernie.
Speaker 1:Um and, uh, yeah, riding the same arrival I've always had and enjoying that, as always. And then, um, yeah, about a specialized Levo and um their gen three motor just recently off of like off of a dealer and online there and just to try it out and see what it's all about. Um, I more needed it. I bought it kind of like off of a dealer and online there and just to try it out and see what it's all about. Um, I more needed it. I bought it kind of like. I was like, how do I justify this. And my kids are starting to race downhill quite a bit and uh, I find myself with the pits and I can't like get to watch them quickly and I'm like maybe if I had an e-bike this would be so bad. So it was to justify, uh, buying one. I was like, okay, I'll bring the e-bike to the downhill races so I can be more available for my kids.
Speaker 2:So are you their mechanic? I am, yeah, wow, that must be interesting.
Speaker 1:Yeah, not just them. There's a group of kids in Kamloops that I'm helping out right now. They're called the Kamloops DH Union. It's a good group of kids that are all uh, growing up and and and growing up fast, holy crow, um, but they're. They're all keen to ride downhill and this year I've kind of pulled in a select group and training them at a high level and pushing them really hard and, uh, at their events I I wrench on all of their bikes and give them tips and pointers and make sure everything's running tickety-boo throughout the weekend for them. So it's a pretty fun way to give back.
Speaker 2:That's amazing. Not many kids that age have a coach with your kind of experience and expertise.
Speaker 1:I think one of them said you know I was watching old mountain bike videos. I didn't know you were in cranked one and I'm like yes, so I don't know if they appreciate or know what I've done, which I don't care about. I just, I'm just another dad like everybody else another dad.
Speaker 2:I mean, how were you multiple times Canadian champion? Uh twice yeah, well, that's multiple for sure. I mean, yeah, and you had some good results on the world cup circuit and like yeah that's wow it's, it's fun.
Speaker 1:I I'm happy to give back.
Speaker 1:I mean, I see in the downhill scene that the at the nbc especially and I think it's true probably in most places you're seeing a lot of these young development groups come up and coaches pop up and people paying an absorbent amount of money to these coaches to coach their kids and whatnot.
Speaker 1:I'm just happy to give back and I spend my free time with them and and it's awesome to see, like, how how much of a sponge they all are and and when you really got them, how how quick um they learn and how eager they are to learn. So it's awesome to give something that you know I I never had. I wish I had had um back to them and hopefully you know somebody uh like johnny helly you know comes I I never had. I wish I had had um back to them and hopefully you know somebody uh like Johnny Helly you know comes out of this and in our area and and we we can foster the next talent, potentially out of Kamloops, which is great. So, um, the sport's given so much to me and it's just awesome to give back.
Speaker 2:How much are you enjoying uh, some of the success some young canadian riders are having on the dh circuit oh, it's, yeah, I mean it's, it's monumental.
Speaker 1:I mean I wish, I wish we were positioned better as a company to like get involved and then be a part of their success stories. Um, and and it it pains me a bit, but yeah, it's, uh, it's just great to see them out there and and and giving her and and, you know, achieving great success at a young age. The talent is deep, um, I think we are set to have an explosion for the next, you know, five years. It might be our turn finally to like really foster some talent and and take over the world stage on the downhill side, which is it's a long time coming, but I just hope that the, the rest of the current group that are there right now, don't lose sight of giving back to those kids and helping them come up instead of pushing them down, and they, they actually uh, all work together to elevate canada and and what we, we should be on the world stage. Um, I think I hope that really happens for them.
Speaker 2:That's a good sentiment. I mean, it's well positioned. Hopefully that's the way it turns out. Yeah, we should probably start to wrap things up here. What do you see for we Are One in the next few years.
Speaker 1:I mean, yeah, we're going to stay consistent, based on the economic climate that we're all faced with in the industry and whatnot. We will be that small punchy rim and wheel company. We want to fill out all of the category potentials that we don't play in and bring forth a meaningful product that delivers, you know, a great performance product at a competitive weight and always focused on like an extreme strength and high quality. We're leaning into our convergence technology with that and expanding that throughout all of those lines and then from there, you know, it's only natural to get into hub development and bring a complete wheel package together that's all manufactured here. So staying true to our roots, for sure, and not moving our manufacturing space anywhere else but Kamloops.
Speaker 2:Well, I certainly wish you the best of luck.
Speaker 1:I've been rooting for we Are One since the beginning and have been impressed by what you've accomplished every step of the way to hop on the arrival train and, and you're always there to back the brand and we appreciate that for sure. And you know the guys, everybody at nsmb has done so much in helping us get to this point and, uh, and it hasn't gone unrecognized and um, we, we always, we always love to to see the folks in vancouver and the north shore, uh, enjoying our product as well my arrival, still my, my number one, yeah, on the wall right across me right there, you still riding it, or?
Speaker 1:absolutely you waiting for the e-rival? Well, I'm yes also have you bit.
Speaker 2:Have you bit as well yeah, yeah, well, I mean, testing has been kind of essential, but, um, I uh, yeah, I've, um, I uh, yeah, I've, I've had some, some health stuff that has made it even more essential. So, um, yeah, the big rides, uh, for pedaling are not in the cards for me. So, and I still like to do those.
Speaker 1:Sorry to hear that yeah.
Speaker 2:But um, but yeah, I, I still, I still get out on it multiple times a week.
Speaker 1:So good man, good man, that's awesome and everything holding up well on it, it's all it's perfect.
Speaker 2:Good, yeah, yeah, it's. Uh, it's amazing. I haven't had a single issue. I mean, it's a bit of a pain in the ass when I have to change a brake line or something like that, but true, we could.
Speaker 1:We actually, um, we were thinking about doing a like a retrofit for that um. So we did work on a new. We have this new material that we were going to bond a like a retrofit for that Um, so we did work on a new. We have this new material that we were going to bond in for cable routing. We had put through prototyping on a few bikes and like would would our current customers that have purchased arrivals be willing to pay for an upgrade to send their frame back? Have us drill in new ports and run internal cable routing for them as a service, and then potentially also like refresh the paint and give it like a new look over and make it all like bring it up to to what we would say is like semi-current, like arrival 1.5. Um, it's something I've been toying with, but uh, yeah, I haven't, I haven't really pitched that idea, but maybe this podcast gets a lot of conversation going.
Speaker 2:I think you've got some very loyal customers who'd be, uh, who'd be keen, yeah, yeah, I mean definitely one of them it makes a.
Speaker 1:It makes the bike a much different like outcome and easier to maintain as well too, so maybe yeah yeah, all right.
Speaker 2:Well, thank you very much, dustin. I appreciate your time. I know you're a busy guy and, uh, I look forward to doing this again before too long right on cam.
Speaker 1:Thanks again, I appreciate it no problem.